Hi everyone. I work at Kelley Chevrolet in the Performance Shop. We are currently building performance packages for the Cobalt SS, that should be availalbe soon. On our black SS, I have ordered a 3.00" pulley which will put the boost up 4 psi. This week I should be dyno testing it to see what its benefits are. I am also going to try out several other pulley sizes. I will keep you informed on the gains. We are located in Hallandale, Florida, which is just south of Ft. Lauderdale. If you are interested in getting more power out of your SS, or simply running your car on the dyno, please let me know or stop by the shop. Email me for directions. Thanks, John

how are you going to get around the EBPV??

I'm in sunrise florida and would like to know how you're gonna get around the ecm as well. And also, if the cobalts use your kit, what condition will their warranty be in after the install? I would like to come see what's up, so what shop are you going to be using to dyno tune?

I'm in sunrise florida and would like to know how you're gonna get around the ecm as well. And also, if the cobalts use your kit, what condition will their warranty be in after the install? I would like to come see what's up, so what shop are you going to be using to dyno tune?
Your warranty will be same as if you modified a Redline/Cobalt/SRT-4.
"Non-existant" on the drivetrain.

Well, I was figuring that, but I wanted to hear him say it, so it's kinda "official".

ok first question- i have a dyno at my shop and tuner that comes in for me that is very experienced who is going to help me solve that issue. i will let you know how that turns out. ;) second- i can garantee you absolutely no problems with your warranty if you get it serviced/fixed with me. even so, most dealers should not give you any issues. but it will never "terminate" or become "non-exsistant" unless you go to a dealer that is mad at you or is in a very very bad mood(if so, they will put a VIN block on your vehicle) :eek:

Hi everyone. I work at Kelley Chevrolet in the Performance Shop. We are currently building performance packages for the Cobalt SS, that should be availalbe soon. On our black SS, I have ordered a 3.00" pulley which will put the boost up 4 psi. This week I should be dyno testing it to see what its benefits are. I am also going to try out several other pulley sizes. I will keep you informed on the gains. We are located in Hallandale, Florida, which is just south of Ft. Lauderdale. If you are interested in getting more power out of your SS, or simply running your car on the dyno, please let me know or stop by the shop. Email me for directions. Thanks, John

John, thank you for letting us assist you with our DUB 3.0" pulley unit and keep us posted as to your individual performance results on your test vehicle. We also have other DUB Pulley Ring sizes all the way down to 2.80" for yet, more added boost, fully dependant on ECU reprogramming etc. Good luck to you and Bill on your project vehicle.

i have got the first two things on my cobalt now. i have also run it on my dyno. i have made a custom K & N filter, and put colder copper NGK R plugs in it. it put out 204 HP at the wheels, which is arround 233 engine HP. i purchased a NOS kit to spray the intercooler yesterday, and also have FOUND A WAY ARROUND THE PCM. i will install the 3.00" pulley monday and the NOS. i am expecting arround 250-260 wheel HP.

i have got the first two things on my cobalt now. i have also run it on my dyno. i have made a custom K & N filter, and put colder copper NGK R plugs in it. it put out 204 HP at the wheels, which is arround 233 engine HP. i purchased a NOS kit to spray the intercooler yesterday, and also have FOUND A WAY ARROUND THE PCM. i will install the 3.00" pulley monday and the NOS. i am expecting arround 250-260 wheel HP.
Well, one thing I was wondering, is what the base dyno was, so we can see what kinda of gain the "first two things" got you. And also, being out intercooler is integrated into the intake manifold, how are you going to spray it with the nitrous? Just a couple questions. O yeah, HOW'D YOU GET AROUND THE COMP?!?!?!?! That's all :D .

Well, one thing I was wondering, is what the base dyno was, so we can see what kinda of gain the "first two things" got you. And also, being out intercooler is integrated into the intake manifold, how are you going to spray it with the nitrous? Just a couple questions. O yeah, HOW'D YOU GET AROUND THE COMP?!?!?!?! That's all :D .

ok first- i am running the car with all factory equiptment on monday, so then we can get a baseline. second- of course the intercooler is cooling the intake manifold, but the actual intercooler is in between the condensor and the radiator, and the spray is applied in front of the intercooler itself, with an aluminum snake-like hose. all it does is basically freeze the intercooler, making the air very cold. last- how did i get past the PCM? i have done some testing, but not extesnsive, on this problem. my results were going great, until my "bypass" broke. this is a very important thing, and if done wrong or cheap, by an unexperienced person, you could seriously damage your car. i will be selling a "fix" to the PCM that is indeed very safe and will not effect the air/fuel. later this week, most likely weds or thurs, i should have the "fix" installed and i will then test it in every aspect. :D

ok first- i am running the car with all factory equiptment on monday, so then we can get a baseline. second- of course the intercooler is cooling the intake manifold, but the actual intercooler is in between the condensor and the radiator, and the spray is applied in front of the intercooler itself, with an aluminum snake-like hose. all it does is basically freeze the intercooler, making the air very cold. last- how did i get past the PCM? i have done some testing, but not extesnsive, on this problem. my results were going great, until my "bypass" broke. this is a very important thing, and if done wrong or cheap, by an unexperienced person, you could seriously damage your car. i will be selling a "fix" to the PCM that is indeed very safe and will not effect the air/fuel. later this week, most likely weds or thurs, i should have the "fix" installed and i will then test it in every aspect. :D


That is interesting becuase i had thought the "intercooler" had been disscussed before. The "intercooler is located under the S/C and the part in front of the car is as GM calls it a "Radiator" or for laymans terms "heat exchanger".it goes condensor, "radiator" heat exchnager, then the true radiator for the vehicle. which if you are spraying NOS on it will still have the same effect cooling the fluid which runs to the intercooler, but you in fact would not be spraying the intercooler

204 at the wheels with that stuff? I have seen better numbers with the stock equipment!

keep in mind that he may be on a different type of dyno. But if he is using a dynojet then yes I fully agree with you Mercury.

To expand on what littleSS said. Will cooling the fluid be of any benefit? Yes I think it would but.... just think of how long you will have to keep the spray on to even cool the fluid down enough to make a difference.

the intercooler is indeed in between the condenser and the radiator, but it can be called a "heat exchanger" if you like. thats just another name. that is the part that you want to cool, because that is the part that the air cools the fluid at. you are correct in a sense tho. the fluid does flow under the supercharger to the intake manifold. the spray will not have to be held down for long at all, and it will have a signifigant impact on the cars operating temp, and the performance of the car. the fluid gets very hot inside the intercooler, and the NOS is very cold, which will almost freeze the intercooler, which in turn will signifigantly cool the air. when i install it 2morrow, ill take pics and do a dyno run.

the intercooler is indeed in between the condenser and the radiator, but it can be called a "heat exchanger" if you like. thats just another name. that is the part that you want to cool, because that is the part that the air cools the fluid at. you are correct in a sense tho. the fluid does flow under the supercharger to the intake manifold. the spray will not have to be held down for long at all, and it will have a signifigant impact on the cars operating temp, and the performance of the car. the fluid gets very hot inside the intercooler, and the NOS is very cold, which will almost freeze the intercooler, which in turn will signifigantly cool the air. when i install it 2morrow, ill take pics and do a dyno run.


i am not trying to be an ass but correct me if i am wrong on this please. the tradtional "intercooler" cools air from the S/C or turbo correct? the what you call intercooler does not recieve any air from, in our case the S/C, correct? it only allows the cooling of liquid which comes from the intercooler, hince the GM Name of raditaor or heat exchanger right? i am just trying to make sure we all understand which is the actual intercooler and what is the heat exchanger/radiator (for the intercooler). maybe if we posted pics, which i know you plan on doing tommorow. we could get this straight

i am not trying to be an ass but correct me if i am wrong on this please. the tradtional "intercooler" cools air from the S/C or turbo correct? the what you call intercooler does not recieve any air from, in our case the S/C, correct? it only allows the cooling of liquid which comes from the intercooler, hince the GM Name of raditaor or heat exchanger right? i am just trying to make sure we all understand which is the actual intercooler and what is the heat exchanger/radiator (for the intercooler). maybe if we posted pics, which i know you plan on doing tommorow. we could get this straight


I thought GM call it an aftercooler? :confused: Does it really matter??? :p

Regardig his dyno runs, he could have also posted non-corrected numbers, like PSI-Fi has done. So the numbers might seem low, but wait to just see the increase, because that is what matters right now. Also, being located in South Florida like he is, heat and HIGH (like 95%) humidity also affect his numbers. Just a couple things to keep in mind.

i am not trying to be an ass but correct me if i am wrong on this please. the tradtional "intercooler" cools air from the S/C or turbo correct? the what you call intercooler does not recieve any air from, in our case the S/C, correct? it only allows the cooling of liquid which comes from the intercooler, hince the GM Name of raditaor or heat exchanger right? i am just trying to make sure we all understand which is the actual intercooler and what is the heat exchanger/radiator (for the intercooler). maybe if we posted pics, which i know you plan on doing tommorow. we could get this straight

yes you are correct. it is an air to water intercooler, so there is no air from or to the s/c going to it. all it does is make the water extremely cold, which in turn cools the air a good amount.

I thought GM call it an aftercooler? :confused: Does it really matter??? :p

i guess it really doesn't matter. it is just some people don't have the automotive knowledge as others do. just trying to get it explained as to what exactly they are doing thats all :D

yes you are correct. it is an air to water intercooler, so there is no air from or to the s/c going to it. all it does is make the water extremely cold, which in turn cools the air a good amount.


it is all good. no more remarks from the peanut gallery :D :D . can't wait to see the numbers

yes you are correct. it is an air to water intercooler, so there is no air from or to the s/c going to it. all it does is make the water extremely cold, which in turn cools the air a good amount.

Why not just run a dry system into the intake? Seems like a wiser use of the nitrous as the aftercooler wouldn't stay cool for long while the motor is wound up.

The aftercooler has nothing to do with the engine temps. It has its own source of coolant.

The aftercooler has nothing to do with the engine temps. It has its own source of coolant.

Yes but a cooler aftercooler means cooler more dense air flowing through the s/c. It just doesn't seem like it would be very effective.

Yes but a cooler aftercooler means cooler more dense air flowing through the s/c. It just doesn't seem like it would be very effective.

actually the air is cooled after it travels through the supercharger. and little ss its all good. :p i installed the kit today, and i have to say it all fits much better than i expected. also, the vehicle appears completely stock, even with the hood open. of course the large tank and ugly switch give it away, but i intend on hiding the switch. i finished the kit at like 8:30 pm, so every N20 refill place was closed. hopefully will have pics and dyno results tommorrow. also, regarding my "low" dyno results. i talked to the tuner at my shop about why my results would be so low. i was told two reasons. one, as we all suspected, was the 96% humidity and the incrediblly hot temp. second, was my dynojet is VERY conservitive, and in turn meaning very acurate. if any of you with stock CSS were to run on my dyno, you would find lower and more acurate numbers, very close to GM's ratings. :D

That is interesting becuase i had thought the "intercooler" had been disscussed before. The "intercooler is located under the S/C and the part in front of the car is as GM calls it a "Radiator" or for laymans terms "heat exchanger".it goes condensor, "radiator" heat exchnager, then the true radiator for the vehicle. which if you are spraying NOS on it will still have the same effect cooling the fluid which runs to the intercooler, but you in fact would not be spraying the intercooler

This is correct. The s/c intercooler is located inside the intake manifold and can only be acessed by removing the manifold. He is talking about the heat exchanger which looks just like a small radiator and is very thin.

Now from my experience and research, spraying the heat exchanger will not have the same effect as spraying W/A pre-blower in cooling intake temps because the exchanger is air to water and not air to air. Even by freezing the exchanger completly intake temps will not be dropped as much as with W/A, and freezing anything with water inside is not a very smart thing to do since it will expand. Anybody disagree?

This is correct. The s/c intercooler is located inside the intake manifold and can only be acessed by removing the manifold. He is talking about the heat exchanger which looks just like a small radiator and is very thin.

Now from my experience and research, spraying the heat exchanger will not have the same effect as spraying W/A pre-blower in cooling intake temps because the exchanger is air to water and not air to air. Even by freezing the exchanger completly intake temps will not be dropped as much as with W/A, and freezing anything with water inside is not a very smart thing to do since it will expand. Anybody disagree?

yes you are correct, i am doing it into the "heat exchanger". however, this system uses a air to water, as you said. it does not have an air to air, so there is no sense in even considering that. plus, air to water works much better. also, it is a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and water in the intercooler, for a few obvious reasons- prevent corrosion, keep from freezing, and to cool at its best. the N20 will not freeze the liqiud in the intercooler, (and why would i want it to, it wouldnt cirrculate if it were frozen) but will make it very cold, which will signifigantly reduce air temperature going into the motor. so dont worry buddy, no expanding. :)

yes you are correct, i am doing it into the "heat exchanger". however, this system uses a air to water, as you said. it does not have an air to air, so there is no sense in even considering that. plus, air to water works much better. also, it is a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and water in the intercooler, for a few obvious reasons- prevent corrosion, keep from freezing, and to cool at its best. the N20 will not freeze the liqiud in the intercooler, (and why would i want it to, it wouldnt cirrculate if it were frozen) but will make it very cold, which will signifigantly reduce air temperature going into the motor. so dont worry buddy, no expanding. :)


ok it's me again. we have been watching this thread at the dealership i work at and another questions was brought up.

if you are spraying N2O in the front of the car, which i am not sure of but it sounds like it, you are spraying the condensor for the A/C then you get to the aftercooler,heat exchanger or what ever you want to call it. with the N2O having to go through the condesor first then the cooler how much is this really going to cool down the 50/50 antifreeze which is in the cooler. does it do it enought to really make a difference. for the amount of money spent on a N2O cooler system? i know you are waiting to do dyno runs but we were just curious as to what real effect this might have :D

As far as he explained to me via PM, he is not spraying THROUGH the AC condenser, he is spraying the heat exchanger directly. He was even going to move the AC condenser up an inch if needed, but there was enough room as to not to have to move the condenser. So, he is spraying the heat exchanger directly.

As far as he explained to me via PM, he is not spraying THROUGH the AC condenser, he is spraying the heat exchanger directly. He was even going to move the AC condenser up an inch if needed, but there was enough room as to not to have to move the condenser. So, he is spraying the heat exchanger directly.

well then that should work fairly well i didn't see that much room in there but cool and good job. again can't wait to see the numbers :D

yes you are correct, i am doing it into the "heat exchanger". however, this system uses a air to water, as you said. it does not have an air to air, so there is no sense in even considering that. plus, air to water works much better. also, it is a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and water in the intercooler, for a few obvious reasons- prevent corrosion, keep from freezing, and to cool at its best. the N20 will not freeze the liqiud in the intercooler, (and why would i want it to, it wouldnt cirrculate if it were frozen) but will make it very cold, which will signifigantly reduce air temperature going into the motor. so dont worry buddy, no expanding. :)

So you are saying that spraying the heat exchanger will provide a better cooling effect than W/A injection pre-blower? From what I have seen our heat exchangers are extremely efficient already.

So you are saying that spraying the heat exchanger will provide a better cooling effect than W/A injection pre-blower? From what I have seen our heat exchangers are extremely efficient already.

yes they are very efficent, but that factor can be increased more. and yes, spraying dry N20 into the air intake system would be very effective. however, just remember that these are packages i am selling that WILL NOT VOID WARRANTY. :) if i were to spray INTO the engine itself, the day i install that system the warranty will be completely ruined. if you would like a dry kit, yes it will be quite effective, but at the sacrafice of your precious warranty. :eek:

Aren't you going to have the spray QUITE a bit of N20 onto the exchanger? How are you going to be sure you don't flash freeze what's in there. You're not talking about -20F temps, you're talking -127 shock to the cores. I dunno man...

Next question, why N20 and not the Cry02 system? Cheaper than N20 be a decent amount, particuarly the refills. Seems like if you were running anything more than a quick 1/4 mile run you'd need a bottle of gas per lap! I'm assuming that you're going to place the spray bar in between the AC and the intercooler's exchanger. Why not add a small heat exchanger to the system, place it in a box and use either ice, dry ice, or something like the N20 or Cry02 system on that?

Also, if the intercooler became cracked from constant heating and cooling from -127 up to +200 degrees. You're gonna cover that under warranty?

I thought GM call it an aftercooler? :confused: Does it really matter??? :p

An intercooler is air to air almost always. Aftercoolers are for liquid systems. It's just semantics. To be proper, the Cobalt dosen't have an intercooler it's an aftercooler... same difference though...

The aftercooler has nothing to do with the engine temps. It has its own source of coolant.

Blower and engine heat would cause it ( the aftercooler) to heat up quickly. ;)

Aren't you going to have the spray QUITE a bit of N20 onto the exchanger? How are you going to be sure you don't flash freeze what's in there. You're not talking about -20F temps, you're talking -127 shock to the cores. I dunno man...

Next question, why N20 and not the Cry02 system? Cheaper than N20 be a decent amount, particuarly the refills. Seems like if you were running anything more than a quick 1/4 mile run you'd need a bottle of gas per lap! I'm assuming that you're going to place the spray bar in between the AC and the intercooler's exchanger. Why not add a small heat exchanger to the system, place it in a box and use either ice, dry ice, or something like the N20 or Cry02 system on that?

Also, if the intercooler became cracked from constant heating and cooling from -127 up to +200 degrees. You're gonna cover that under warranty?

to answer your first question, i dont beleive that it will take hardly any n2o to cool it down. a cry2o would work just as good, but i prefer n2o. when you cool the heat exchanger down, it stays cool for a good while, do to the fact that the thing is basiclly frozen. second of all the fluid never gets near 200+ degrees(only in the radiator) definatly not -127,(not sure where you got those numbers.) if it got to -127, that would definatly freeze the fluid in the system, which would defeat the purpose by stoping the flow. also, you could possiblly get the exchager that cold, and yes it would most likely crack if the cooling system is abused. and no matter what happens to the heat exchagner or any part of the car that i installed my aftermarket parts on is WITHOUT A DOUBT COVERED. thats the main goal of my packages, was to create 3 stages of fun, affordable packages for everyday drivers and people. stage 1 starts at $195 installed.

What are these three stages and what may they include, for those of us locally interested?

I'm skeptical about this. You seem to have an idea in your head that in principle makes sense, but you have not quantified very well at all, or explored the physics to figure out whether it will actually work.

to answer your first question, i dont beleive that it will take hardly any n2o to cool it down. a cry2o would work just as good, but i prefer n2o. when you cool the heat exchanger down, it stays cool for a good while, do to the fact that the thing is basiclly frozen.
I think these statements are fundamentally not accurate. N2O gas has a pretty low specific heat capacity compared to water, as does the metal the heat exchanger is made of. Sure, if you spray N2O onto an EMPTY heat exchanger, it will cool off pretty fast, but that's because the metal has a very low specific heat capacity itself. Run some hot water/antifreeze through it, and you will find that the temperature of the water is barely affected at all, because the aftercooler simply doesn't sink that much thermal energy.

And that doesn't even take into consideration the loss of efficiency you get from attempting to spray it on the aftercooler. When people use a small nitrous injection to cool the charge, you have to remember that (a) 100% of the nitrous gas being used is going into the intake charge, and also that (b) nearly 100% of the energy being absorbed by the nitrous is coming from the intake charge, not from somewhere else. With the setup you are proposing, I suspect 50% of the gas you "spray" will wind up in the atmosphere, not doing what you want it to do, and that a good portion of the energy absorbed by the gas that does make it onto the aftercooler core will come from atmosphere, not the metal (which is what you'd want). I would guess the efficiency of your setup (the ratio of thermal energy withdrawn from the coolant to the total thermal capacity of the nitrous used) is pretty horrendous. Maybe 10% if you're lucky.

If you'd like, I can look up all the specific heat capacities, and we can do some "back of the napkin" math to ballpark it. I suspect it will show that you have to spray a tremendous quantity of gas onto the heat exchanger to achieve even a small result.

But hell, prove me wrong... let's see your dyno.

I'm skeptical about this. You seem to have an idea in your head that in principle makes sense, but you have not quantified very well at all, or explored the physics to figure out whether it will actually work.


I think these statements are fundamentally not accurate. N2O gas has a pretty low specific heat capacity compared to water, as does the metal the heat exchanger is made of. Sure, if you spray N2O onto an EMPTY heat exchanger, it will cool off pretty fast, but that's because the metal has a very low specific heat capacity itself. Run some hot water/antifreeze through it, and you will find that the temperature of the water is barely affected at all, because the aftercooler simply doesn't sink that much thermal energy.

And that doesn't even take into consideration the loss of efficiency you get from attempting to spray it on the aftercooler. When people use a small nitrous injection to cool the charge, you have to remember that (a) 100% of the nitrous gas being used is going into the intake charge, and also that (b) nearly 100% of the energy being absorbed by the nitrous is coming from the intake charge, not from somewhere else. With the setup you are proposing, I suspect 50% of the gas you "spray" will wind up in the atmosphere, not doing what you want it to do, and that a good portion of the energy absorbed by the gas that does make it onto the aftercooler core will come from atmosphere, not the metal (which is what you'd want). I would guess the efficiency of your setup (the ratio of thermal energy withdrawn from the coolant to the total thermal capacity of the nitrous used) is pretty horrendous. Maybe 10% if you're lucky.

If you'd like, I can look up all the specific heat capacities, and we can do some "back of the napkin" math to ballpark it. I suspect it will show that you have to spray a tremendous quantity of gas onto the heat exchanger to achieve even a small result.

But hell, prove me wrong... let's see your dyno.

you are very right about this. i dont know how it will come out, but i am currently in the middle of nowhere in Georgia, :mad: so i cannot run it until next weekend. :( but i have seen this system used before, and i can tell you that at least 75% goes directly on the heat exchanger, due to the fact that it is pressed completely against it, and also the s-pipe is mounted right over the core tubes. but again, i cant know for sure uk ntil i drive it and dyno it. also, about the packages- stage one: custom fit K&N high flow filter and your choice of copper or iriduim plugs. i saw a very nice increase in power from stage one, which is currently in my vehicle. i will post the dyno charts when i get home. stage two: SFPH DUB pulley(again, your choice of size), custom PCM modification, and stage one. stage 3: stages one and two, in addition to full exhaust (man. by GM Perf.) from the motor back, and either n20 intercooler spray system or dry shot. dyno charts on these will certainly be posted in two weeks, along with a price for stage 2 and 3. stage 1 is $195 installed before discounts*, (discounts for new customers will apply)(only on stage 1 & 2)

Interesting. So, how is that not gonna void my warranty if I put the pulley on? If it can't be serviced by you, how will this affect my warranty when brought into any other dealer for service needed? If I were to get any of the stages from you, I'm heading up to orlando for school, so how would I get thinkgs fixed if I needed to?

Interesting. So, how is that not gonna void my warranty if I put the pulley on? If it can't be serviced by you, how will this affect my warranty when brought into any other dealer for service needed? If I were to get any of the stages from you, I'm heading up to orlando for school, so how would I get thinkgs fixed if I needed to?

the pulley should not give you any problems from other dealers. i will check extensivly on monday as to whether it will or not FOR CERTIAN. every other product on the list, except the dry shot of n20. will not, meaning definatly will not, give you any issues.

Hey KP how is that intercooler nitrous kit working for you? I'm curious, is it similar to NX's Ntercooler kit?

the pulley should not give you any problems from other dealers. i will check extensivly on monday as to whether it will or not FOR CERTIAN. every other product on the list, except the dry shot of n20. will not, meaning definatly will not, give you any issues.

Got to be honest I don't give a shit about warranty except for my damn door panel. Anyway how much power with the Stage 1 on the dyno. How far have you gotten with this testing. Sounds like this is a hit and miss R&D if I ever heard it. Not trying to break your balls but if it was me I would have completed all three stages, completed the dyno test on each and then post results and prices.

Good luck man I would love to get something on my car soon so finish this crap up.

Also how you reprogramming the computer is software avalible. :confused:

I can promise you that a smaller pulley will void the warranty on both the s/c and the engine. If a piston ring fails and comes apart, they'll just say that it was from the increased amount of oxygen forced into the engine from the smaller pulley on the charger. And let's not forget the pcm. Modifying the electronics of the veh to make it go faster and allow more boost that allowed from the factory will void the warranty there as well. With these types of modifications, there is no way that the warranty will still be around when you are done.

its called return the vehicle to stock before you go to the dealer

The tech at my particular Saturn dealership dissagrees. I have been there a few times and wanted to get to know the techs on a first name basis. Fortunatly there is only on redline tech, so that was easy.
I asked him about intake and exhaust.... "no problem". I asked him about a header and highflow cat.... "no problem". Okay, a pulley.... " only if the sc were burned up, and only if I saw it on the vehicle at the specific time the car was in the shop for the problem. I doesn't matter what I have seen on it in the past." So I make it real difficult. I ask what if I bring the car in with all of these mods, plus a piggyback controller connected to a burned up ECU. He tells me, " Take it home and pull the piggyback. You got yourself a fresh ECU". I have yet to find out if he will hold true to these statements.
So as far as warranties go. It really varies from dealer to dealer. And get to know your techs. Ask, listen, never disagree, and take all that they tell you with a grain of salt;)... a tech that thinks you are a dick came be your worst nighmare.

Not to nag like an old man, but taking parts off to get warranty to fix something you broke is basically STEALING from GM.

How would you like it if you ran a company, and people were cheating you out of hundreds or even thousands of dollars? Oh but GM has billions, who cares, right? Hell, the company's in enough trouble on its own, without "customers" like you!

I'm certainly not supporting a dealer who denies your brake repair because you have a CAI. But if someone slaps on a pulley and burns up a piston, frankly, I hope the dealership nails him and makes him pay for it.

I can promise you that a smaller pulley will void the warranty on both the s/c and the engine. If a piston ring fails and comes apart, they'll just say that it was from the increased amount of oxygen forced into the engine from the smaller pulley on the charger. And let's not forget the pcm. Modifying the electronics of the veh to make it go faster and allow more boost that allowed from the factory will void the warranty there as well. With these types of modifications, there is no way that the warranty will still be around when you are done.


I have to agree short of a catback or a cold air kit you warranty is going to be up to the dealer especially if they see a smaller pulley and want to be assholes about it. Warranty is kinda like politics it who you know not what ya know. I personally have gotten a 6spd replaced on a 10.40et car but I new the service manager. If I blow a motor due to a pulley or NOS I will simply put it back to stock and tow it in like I don't know what the hell happened. :confused: :D I know for a fact if they see a Bottle in the trunk you warranty is as good as gone. Weather it sprays in the intake or just on the cooler you will still be screwed. Bottom line if you are worried about warranty I suggest not touching your car outside a cold air and a catback.

Not to nag like an old man, but taking parts off to get warranty to fix something you broke is basically STEALING from GM.

How would you like it if you ran a company, and people were cheating you out of hundreds or even thousands of dollars? Oh but GM has billions, who cares, right? Hell, the company's in enough trouble on its own, without "customers" like you!

I'm certainly not supporting a dealer who denies your brake repair because you have a CAI. But if someone slaps on a pulley and burns up a piston, frankly, I hope the dealership nails him and makes him pay for it.

Well call me a theif, but if I break my car and the dealer will fix it then I will get it fixed. I don't care if the vehicle is stock or not, especially when my tech tells me what I need to do in order for it to be covered.
In my opinion, and apparently my techs opinion, if a motor is rated to 500 horse power as GM claims it to be able to handle. Then a pulley isn't going to be the root of an internal problem.
And why should a CIA be acceptable for warranty coverage? I have personally grenaded a motor with the help of a CIA, and been turned down for warranty coverage.
It really varies dealer to dealer.

Well call me a theif, but if I break my car and the dealer will fix it then I will get it fixed. I don't care if the vehicle is stock or not, especially when my tech tells me what I need to do in order for it to be covered.
In my opinion, and apparently my techs opinion, if a motor is rated to 500 horse power as GM claims it to be able to handle. Then a pulley isn't going to be the root of an internal problem.
And why should a CIA be acceptable for warranty coverage? I have personally grenaded a motor with the help of a CIA, and been turned down for warranty coverage.
It really varies dealer to dealer.

Similar situation happened to me in my mustang. They said my longtube headers were the cause of my motor to spin a rod bearing. I ended up in court for four months getting my motor replaced under the MM act.

Y'all are missing the point. The point is that the stage kits will void the warranty, regardless of what kelleyperformance says. Granted, you could remove them before you bring the veh into the shop, but they could still refuse to cover the damage if they remember that the parts were on the car. You would end up in a court battle over it. If something happens and they get pissed at you then they can suddenly "remember" you had those parts on in the past. Also, there will be ways to tell that you have modified the veh even with the parts removed. Scratches on the s/c snout from removing the pulley, cut wires from the pcm piggyback, etc. Very easy for them to say no, which is what GM would want them to do in that kind of case. For a tech to tell you that he would "not remember" you having any parts on your car when you brought it in with a blown motor would get him fired and in a good bit of trouble. Does it happen? Well I'm sure it does, but it won't happen on my car. Especially when GM can read what you post on the very public internet and submit that as evidence.

Y'all are missing the point. The point is that the stage kits will void the warranty, regardless of what kelleyperformance says. Granted, you could remove them before you bring the veh into the shop, but they could still refuse to cover the damage if they remember that the parts were on the car. You would end up in a court battle over it. If something happens and they get pissed at you then they can suddenly "remember" you had those parts on in the past. Also, there will be ways to tell that you have modified the veh even with the parts removed. Scratches on the s/c snout from removing the pulley, cut wires from the pcm piggyback, etc. Very easy for them to say no, which is what GM would want them to do in that kind of case. For a tech to tell you that he would "not remember" you having any parts on your car when you brought it in with a blown motor would get him fired and in a good bit of trouble. Does it happen? Well I'm sure it does, but it won't happen on my car. Especially when GM can read what you post on the very public internet and submit that as evidence.

'cuz here is my name and address right? As I stated before... that is what the tech told me, and I have yet to try to hold him to that. If he wants to put his job on the line for my vehicle, so be it. I won't feel guilty if he gets popped or GM takes a loss. I guess I am caloused.
As far as the tell tale signs of a removed mod. It is not illegal to wrench on your own vehicle for what ever reason. Proving that you had a mod is as much a word against word fight as anything.
Don't get me wrong. I am not waiting for a problem, wringing my hands greedily. I haven't even done any mods yet. You can bet though, that when it comes time to cash in on a warranty item, I will fight tooth and nail for full coverage... mods or not. That is why I felt out and got to know my tech. I was fully prepared to find a different dealership if I felt the service department was hard nosed. I lucked out.
Anyway to each his own. I guess I am going to hell. ;)

'cuz here is my name and address right? As I stated before... that is what the tech told me, and I have yet to try to hold him to that. If he wants to put his job on the line for my vehicle, so be it. I won't feel guilty if he gets popped or GM takes a loss. I guess I am caloused.
As far as the tell tale signs of a removed mod. It is not illegal to wrench on your own vehicle for what ever reason. Proving that you had a mod is as much a word against word fight as anything.
Don't get me wrong. I am not waiting for a problem, wringing my hands greedily. I haven't even done any mods yet. You can bet though, that when it comes time to cash in on a warranty item, I will fight tooth and nail for full coverage... mods or not. That is why I felt out and got to know my tech. I was fully prepared to find a different dealership if I felt the service department was hard nosed. I lucked out.
Anyway to each his own. I guess I am going to hell. ;)

I've been a GM service writer for 3 years now. Believe me, the best thing that you can do is be nice and friendly with EVERYONE at the dealership. That is your best bet to getting things covered and fixed in those cases. I would not take the attitude that a lot of people have that "my car is under warranty and you are going to fix it" because that does not really hold true when you have worked on your car. If you are being a dick and the service manager does not like you, scratches on your s/c snout will cause you a big problem. You may be able to fight it out and get it covered, but be prepared to be without your car being fixed until after the court battle. Even if you just removed your factory pulley and put it back on, all they have to say is that you did it wrong and presto, voided warranty. Remember, being under warranty does NOT mean that they have to fix your car. They can send you on your merry way for a number of reasons, put you on the backburner and sit on your car for weeks before they work on it without giving you transportation, etc. Best bet is to always be nice, but don't be surprised if they decline you. There is too much on the line and many people would get in trouble.

I'm a service writer at a chrysler/kia dealership and ANY and EVERY single part replaced under kia warranty has to be sent back to kia for official inspection and if they find that it shouldn't have been done under warranty, you'll find yourself in a courtroom quicker than shit for them to get their money back.

Kia watches their warranty work and their parts like hound dogs. You don't get a tranny service at 30k and your tranny goes at 50, kia will decline repairs under warranty. They're strict as hell with their new 100k shit, chrysler's strict as hell too, but not as bad as kia, they only offer 3/36 basic and 5/60 powertrain.

I'm a service writer at a chrysler/kia dealership and ANY and EVERY single part replaced under kia warranty has to be sent back to kia for official inspection and if they find that it shouldn't have been done under warranty, you'll find yourself in a courtroom quicker than shit for them to get their money back.

Kia watches their warranty work and their parts like hound dogs. You don't get a tranny service at 30k and your tranny goes at 50, kia will decline repairs under warranty. They're strict as hell with their new 100k shit, chrysler's strict as hell too, but not as bad as kia, they only offer 3/36 basic and 5/60 powertrain.

Gm is the same way. If they find a part that was covered that should not have been covered, they will refuse payment. If it was blatent, they will go further than that. They will also send out adjusters to look at big shit when it comes up like a blown engine on a new car, and believe me those adjusters are looking for a reason that they DO NOT have to pay for the repairs. No one is gonna say that a K&N intake caused your pcm to go out, but they could say that a smaller pulley blew an engine.

So as far as warranties go. It really varies from dealer to dealer. And get to know your techs. Ask, listen, never disagree, and take all that they tell you with a grain of salt;)... a tech that thinks you are a dick came be your worst nighmare.


Obviously I agree, but I will do all I can. Sometimes you have to be a dick to get things done.


I take my ram to a dodge/kia dealer... so I know what you mean about them being strict. On monday i get a threatening letter that I haven't been in for service ( I do all my own mantinence) and my warranty is in jepordy. Then on tuesday I get an invitation to extend my warranty.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree on some things.

to answer your first question, i dont beleive that it will take hardly any n2o to cool it down. a cry2o would work just as good, but i prefer n2o. when you cool the heat exchanger down, it stays cool for a good while, do to the fact that the thing is basiclly frozen. second of all the fluid never gets near 200+ degrees(only in the radiator) definatly not -127,(not sure where you got those numbers.) if it got to -127, that would definatly freeze the fluid in the system, which would defeat the purpose by stoping the flow. also, you could possiblly get the exchager that cold, and yes it would most likely crack if the cooling system is abused. and no matter what happens to the heat exchagner or any part of the car that i installed my aftermarket parts on is WITHOUT A DOUBT COVERED. thats the main goal of my packages, was to create 3 stages of fun, affordable packages for everyday drivers and people. stage 1 starts at $195 installed.

-127 is the temp that N20 comes out at. The bolded part is exactly my concern. What are you going to use to prevent this condition? It takes quite a bit to 'freeze' an Air-Air intercooler, which has a much lower heat capacity than one filled with a dense liquid that's under constant circulation. I can only imagine the amount it would require. You may like N20 more, but it's much more expensive that the Cry02 setup, the refills are MUCH more than a bottle of C02. You are also going to put a LARGE amount of heat induced stress onto the intercooler coils. The coolant inside is quite warm, 200 is a little high, I was thinking of the actual coolant. Considering that the intercooler coolant is at least ambient temp, which today would be 90 degrees. You're talking about applying a cooling charge to the outside of a fluid filled device with a temp variation of 200 degrees.

I dunno man... I think the right way to go is an ice box, like aftercooler users have been doing for quite sometime.

I agree. A resivior of cold coolant would be a better deal. Unfortunately....that adds weight.
Even if the N20 or CO2 were sprayed on the heat exchanger....the thermal mass would have to be cooled.......the effect wouldn't instantly be transfered to the intercooler in the intake manifold. Unless the amount of coolant is real small. There would be a lag.

The more I think about it, the water to air setup just doesn't seem all that great. Besides, it adds a flow restriction in the intake manifold. Probably no other way to do it with a roots blower though.

I'd really like to see a picture/cutaway and description of the system.

Ron

http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15

This is the Laminova site... it has one of the best cooling efficiencys of any inter/aftercooler on the market.

Is this what is used in the Cobals SS/SC?
Thanks for the info Spooner
Ron

Is this what is used in the Cobals SS/SC?
Thanks for the info Spooner
Ron

Yeah, this is what's in the 'intake manifold' on the Cobalt and Redline. VERY good intercooler. I see what our friend is going for, but I think the route is wrong. Look at the Moroso Fuel Ice Box from Summit racing. $99. Fill that sucker with ice, route the intercooler lines into it, and get a nice drop in temps... Some other Redline owners have bought similar items that are/were meant for Mustang Cobras. I'm sorry, I know this guy is working hard on this stuff, I don't mean to shoot him down.

I'm more interested in ECU stuff though... that's what we really need at this point... ;)

Thanks Spooner, good info! This is what I came here for. I'd still like to see what's really inside.........
One thing to think about, and thats the amount of time the supercharged (heated) air spends in the intercooler. Pretty small amount of time, so the thing has to be very efficient. Compare it to a large turbo intercooler, and you see what I mean. Of course an air to air turbo setup can only cool close to ambient.
Look at the Fast Mustang racers....they have an air to water setup, on the pass side floor with a bunch of ice and water to do the cooling.
The Moroso fuel cooler is a good idea. But your passenger might not like it! Unless it could fit under the hood. At that point, I'd bypass the heat exchanger.....it will only try to melt the ice.

Agreed 100% that the ECM will be the real key. GM can put so many hooks in there it could be tough to hack. As I've said before, I hope GM provides upgraded programing, and that the better aftermarket tuners get involved and figure it out.

A final thing....how big is the blower? At some point, spinning it faster will net poor results, and a guy would simply have to get a larger unit....of course we all would like that. :)

Ron

Here's a link to redlineforums.com where I have some pics of my intercooler cores removed from the intake manifold. I had a problem with them leaking and they have produced some sludge in the cores and the manifold. Saturn had them removed and I dropped by for a pic or two. There are 4 cores, but I could only remove 3 of them. Here's that link:

http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4363

Thanks Spooner, good info! This is what I came here for. I'd still like to see what's really inside.........
One thing to think about, and thats the amount of time the supercharged (heated) air spends in the intercooler. Pretty small amount of time, so the thing has to be very efficient. Compare it to a large turbo intercooler, and you see what I mean. Of course an air to air turbo setup can only cool close to ambient.
Look at the Fast Mustang racers....they have an air to water setup, on the pass side floor with a bunch of ice and water to do the cooling.
The Moroso fuel cooler is a good idea. But your passenger might not like it! Unless it could fit under the hood. At that point, I'd bypass the heat exchanger.....it will only try to melt the ice.

Agreed 100% that the ECM will be the real key. GM can put so many hooks in there it could be tough to hack. As I've said before, I hope GM provides upgraded programing, and that the better aftermarket tuners get involved and figure it out.

A final thing....how big is the blower? At some point, spinning it faster will net poor results, and a guy would simply have to get a larger unit....of course we all would like that. :)

Ron

The Moroso unit is much smaller than that. I ordered it this morning, well I will order it this morning/afternoon. It does fit under the hood. Its gonna go after the heat exchager and before the coolant goes back in. Should be good for some temp drops. Hell, someone has to find out. I'm running an Interceptor OBDII scannner, and need to send it back to get it reprogrammed for the LSJ specific parameters. The post blower IAT sensor is one of those new features. I won't have GOOD data until them, just the ass-dyno. There is some possiblity of being able to put dry ice into the Moroso until as well, since it is supposed to be an air tight, leak proof seal. It should cool as well as any other ice box, I'm concerned on the amount of time it will last though. From what I hear, it's alot longer than you think.

The blower is an M62 Eaton, displaces about .62L of air per rev (I could be off on those numbers. I'll check and edit if so) Mercedes uses the smaller M45 on their 2L engines, as does Jackson racing. You're right at some point the blower is production falls to laws of diminsihing returns, but is stll good for a few pounds of boost. I think the computer fights you at it though, as Psi-Fi has found out. Mmmm... Twin Screw... These GenIV Eaton's are good reliable blowers though. Eaton provides a 100,000 mile guarantee to the manufacturers on them.


The key is the ECU. Getting into the advance, fuel trim, and rev limiter is gonna be big. All the GM 'beefed' up LSJ engines have a 7,000+ redline. The dyno chart shows NO curve to the hp line. It makes a straight line right up to the limiter.

The Moroso unit is much smaller than that. I ordered it this morning, well I will order it this morning/afternoon. It does fit under the hood. Its gonna go after the heat exchager and before the coolant goes back in. Should be good for some temp drops. Hell, someone has to find out. I'm running an Interceptor OBDII scannner, and need to send it back to get it reprogrammed for the LSJ specific parameters. The post blower IAT sensor is one of those new features. I won't have GOOD data until them, just the ass-dyno. There is some possiblity of being able to put dry ice into the Moroso until as well, since it is supposed to be an air tight, leak proof seal. It should cool as well as any other ice box, I'm concerned on the amount of time it will last though. From what I hear, it's alot longer than you think.

The blower is an M62 Eaton, displaces about .62L of air per rev (I could be off on those numbers. I'll check and edit if so) Mercedes uses the smaller M45 on their 2L engines, as does Jackson racing. You're right at some point the blower is production falls to laws of diminsihing returns, but is stll good for a few pounds of boost. I think the computer fights you at it though, as Psi-Fi has found out. Mmmm... Twin Screw... These GenIV Eaton's are good reliable blowers though. Eaton provides a 100,000 mile guarantee to the manufacturers on them.


The key is the ECU. Getting into the advance, fuel trim, and rev limiter is gonna be big. All the GM 'beefed' up LSJ engines have a 7,000+ redline. The dyno chart shows NO curve to the hp line. It makes a straight line right up to the limiter.

I seem to be following you on here for some reason today. O well. With the ice box thing, we have to remember, we RL owners have seemingly TONS more room in the engine bay than the cobalt guys do, so this might not fit in there for them with out some modifications. And the interceptor, when will the LSJ specific parameters be ready?

I just emailed him about it again, should be any day now.

That damn Ice box has too small of an inlet and outlet set.... sigh... back to the drawing board... gonna have to fab something up it looks like...

An intercooler is air to air almost always. Aftercoolers are for liquid systems. It's just semantics. To be proper, the Cobalt dosen't have an intercooler it's an aftercooler... same difference though...


Actually GM calls it a charge cooler. :p

BTW thanx to all your warrenty weenies for hijacking another mod thread. How about everyone stops talking about the warrenty for once?

The Kelley guys said he would warrenty it if the parts were installed by his shop and the warrenty was done in his shop. Definetly the mark of a good shop.

Thanx your time and research Kelley. I for one know that if I mod my engine and it explodes I know it's my problem to correct.

Actually GM calls it a charge cooler. :p

BTW thanx to all your warrenty weenies for hijacking another mod thread. How about everyone stops talking about the warrenty for once?

The Kelley guys said he would warrenty it if the parts were installed by his shop and the warrenty was done in his shop. Definetly the mark of a good shop.

Thanx your time and research Kelley. I for one know that if I mod my engine and it explodes I know it's my problem to correct.
The only reason I asked about warranty was because certain things he was saying were sounding contradictory, and not making sense. That makes me doubt certaing aspects. So, sorry for being a "warranty bitch" when I know that he's able to do this because his dad owns the dealer (so I've heard). I'd like to see things in person anyways before even considering doing this "staged upgrade" from him.

His dad owns a dealship bro!

Haha... sorry little ATHF humor.

That's great if his dealer will fix the parts, I don't think that's gonna be the case for anyone that's not local. What's wrong with being warranty concious? Thus far, the cars have not exactly proven themselves as long term reliable.... If someone claims warranty safe, then its Chevy that makes that decision, and not his dealer. If the dealer wants to do it, and Chvey won't pay for the service.... who do you think is gonna pay? Who do you think is gonna get charged if you nuke your intercooler with N20 gas till it cracks or freezes? How would you feel to think you had full covereage, and all of a sudden you have no car and a $1200+ bill in your lap???

There's a good video of the Charge Air cooler here:
http://www.cobaltss.com/forums/showthread.php?t=773

sorry i haven't responded in so long, i have been in georgia. anyway today i am going back to work and will dyno run the cobalt. so far the n20, the k&n, the copper plugs. i have the ecu mod ready and the pulley, so i will be installing those later this week. if you have any questions just PM me, that way i can answer all of them. about the warranty-you guys are absolutly correct. stage 1 will not void it anywhere, but stage 2 and 3 will probably give you issues. i do have a lot of people that come in with there stuff taken off after a problem, but i highly doubt any shot pistons or motors. that is why i have a test car, so this stuff doesnt happen to you guys. also remember that the ecotec put out over 1000 hp when gm screwed around with it, so it seems to be able to handle some power.

ok i finally finished the n20 kit. it looks great and works great also. i have an air temp. gauge coming in so i can really see how much it helps. also, i worked till 8:30 last nite and tonite, so i never had to much time to dyno it. hopefully thursday. i did take it on a long test run that consumed an entire tank. i found the best times and ways to spray it, and gained almost 5 psi of boost in 2nd gear, a few minutes after i sprayed it. the spray only needs to shoot for about 10 seconds (while the car is hot) for it to be effective for about 6 or 7 minutes. so far on my second tank, i have been able to spray it many times and it still is more than half full. i will put pics up in an hour of the n20 kit.

You gained 5lbs of boost by cooling the charge? Umm.... do you have video or other proof of this? Did you try spraying the cooler while the car is at speed? Normally, greatly reducing intake charges will drop boost a small amount, since the cooler air exerts less pressure, but you're gaining overall air density... I'm kinda skeptical that you increased boost almost 50% from cooling the intake charge.

Where and what are you checking the air temps with? Tech2?

I only want details on the ECU 'mod' that you're talking about... what is it?

Perhaps if the computer knows that the Inlet Air is cool, it will allow more boost. Might be very much the same when driving in the winter.
And just as I suspected, they is a delay in the cooling effects due to the thermal mass of the coolant involved.
Ron

You gained 5lbs of boost by cooling the charge? Umm.... do you have video or other proof of this? Did you try spraying the cooler while the car is at speed? Normally, greatly reducing intake charges will drop boost a small amount, since the cooler air exerts less pressure, but you're gaining overall air density... I'm kinda skeptical that you increased boost almost 50% from cooling the intake charge.

Where and what are you checking the air temps with? Tech2?
I'm just not buying it either. It doesn't add up ... spraying a little gas on the heat exchanger made the cooling liquid so cold that you made 5lbs more, and the efffect lasted for 7 minutes? I'm pretty sure physics says this just can't happen. Get it on a dyno, cause your butt-dyno is lying to you.

You gained 5lbs of boost by cooling the charge? Umm.... do you have video or other proof of this? Did you try spraying the cooler while the car is at speed? Normally, greatly reducing intake charges will drop boost a small amount, since the cooler air exerts less pressure, but you're gaining overall air density... I'm kinda skeptical that you increased boost almost 50% from cooling the intake charge.

Where and what are you checking the air temps with? Tech2?

no, but if you would like me to make a video for you or you can come drive it if you live near by me. and yes it is a delayed effect. i usually hit it for 3 or 4 seconds at a light like 30 secs before i take off, then i shoot it again for 3 more secs in 2 gear. at the next light i ran full throttle from 3000-6500 rpm in 2nd gear and i saw 15 psi. then i went to lunch, ran the car 45 mins later without any spray, and it was producing 11 psi. i had to order an air temp. gauge from autometer, so then ill make your video and show you before and after temps. as far as the PCM fix goes i will post pics and explain it all when the testing is complete and it is certain that it will produce no harm and then i can show you its dyno-tested performance gains.

You gained 5 PSI by cooling the air charge? Physics would dictate that your would lose pressure by cooling the charge.

Perhaps if the computer knows that the Inlet Air is cool, it will allow more boost. Might be very much the same when driving in the winter.
And just as I suspected, they is a delay in the cooling effects due to the thermal mass of the coolant involved.
Ron

It's not a turbo, it's making that boost based off engine speed. It's only past 6,000 rpms where the car starts to 'limit' the boost in preperation for redline.

no, but if you would like me to make a video for you or you can come drive it if you live near by me. and yes it is a delayed effect. i usually hit it for 3 or 4 seconds at a light like 30 secs before i take off, then i shoot it again for 3 more secs in 2 gear. at the next light i ran full throttle from 3000-6500 rpm in 2nd gear and i saw 15 psi. then i went to lunch, ran the car 45 mins later without any spray, and it was producing 11 psi. i had to order an air temp. gauge from autometer, so then ill make your video and show you before and after temps. as far as the PCM fix goes i will post pics and explain it all when the testing is complete and it is certain that it will produce no harm and then i can show you its dyno-tested performance gains.

Where are you going to insert an air temp gauge into the manifold? What gauge is it? I've been looking for one for months that will read quickly. If you're just getting a basic one, it will not show you the change in air temps in real time, it will act like a thermometer. There will be a great lag in the change in temp and the readout. If autometer does make on, please let me know. I would like to get one VERY badly.

Where are you going to insert an air temp gauge into the manifold? What gauge is it? I've been looking for one for months that will read quickly. If you're just getting a basic one, it will not show you the change in air temps in real time, it will act like a thermometer. There will be a great lag in the change in temp and the readout. If autometer does make on, please let me know. I would like to get one VERY badly.

yes, its a full sweep electric gauge, meaning it does respond instantly. it is also an autometer, part of the ultra-light series. you are definatly right about finding one, it sucked. i had to order it, at a DISCOUNTED price of $225, which is just insane. other than the probe used to measure temp, it is the same gauge as a boost gauge, which is $50. it only comes with the gauge, and 8 ft of line. thats the worst spent money on my car so far. today i did however lower my cobalt. i used Eibach Sportline springs, 1" f/1.5" r. it rides just as good as it did before, but it handles far better. definatly worth the $300. also, i dyno-ran it 7 or 8 times, just further testing all my parts. the PCM mod i told you about worked great. it helped balance out the Air/fuel, but it still runs pretty rich. there is no DTC's and no issues with the car. i didnt bypass the BCS, but simply eliminated the cars ability to limit to 12 psi. the BCS still will function as far as the other limits go: bypass in reverse, sensed abuse, 1 or 2 gear "load" above 5800 rpm, decelerating. the only safe way pass the abuse and 1/2 gear load is tuning, which is not available yet. i am also working on that too. o ya, the results- 99 degrees, :cool: 75% humidity, 200 degree colant temp, :eek: (k&n filter, copper plugs, BCS rig) 205 WHP, 193 ft/lbs w/o intercooler n20. with intercooler n20- increase of 10 whp, 21 ft/lbs.