i just recieved some information on an intake that has been tested to a 25hp gain in the mid-power band, for the SS. this intake will require some slight cutting on the hole where the intake tube goes through the fender. the hole will need to be cut out more towards the front to fit a bend and pipe properly. i have no idea what price would be on this intake but i would say it would be on par with normal cai costs.

i for one am willing to do some cutting like that for 25hp and would like to see if we can get 50 or so others on the wagon for this, because they would require that many people interested to follow through with production. the company wishes to remain un-named but i can say it's one that everyone knows and they have quality products.

please post in this thread if you are interested in this so we can contact the company to let them know we want the product with the best gains, not one that had to be restricted because gm made a poor design.

this is not the one that modernceo has posted about

1. selfinfliction

before everyone get's all crazy and says it's not possible like at the other place, check out this dyno from injen that shows they got 25hp gains mid-range and the bottom end is just absolutely killer compared to stock.

http://www.injen.com/webpages/testing/dyno_graphs_1104/original/RD1200.jpg

25hp for a CAI?!?!?! wow, but still why does the company wish to remain un-named? If its injen i am in, if not then i would want to know who it is before a absolutly agree to get one.
1. selfinfliction
2. JMac88

25hp for a CAI?!?!?! wow, but still why does the company wish to remain un-named?


it's not necesarily the company, it's the guy i was talking to. i don't want to leak out and get the guy in trouble cause of some stuff he told me

i will say it's one of the top five intake companies in the world

that's weak if they're goint to wait for 50 people to begin production...

but in that case, i'm interested...

So what is the graph from? ie:Car

So what is the graph from? ie:Car

not an lsj, look at where the graph drops off ~7k,

also, looks nothing like our torque curve. i think he's using it for reference

So what is the graph from? ie:Car
I was reading the post and looked at the graph, and the powercurve isn't matching other dyno pulls done with 2.0 supercharged eco tech. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but the rev limiter stops where 6000-6500, the graph goes higher than that, also a stocker should put out 190-205hp :rolleyes: to the wheels. A intake is nice for the sound, but remember you're forced induction, and a engine is nothing more than a airpump. I'm not saying it won't give you more power, 5-8hp is the best bet. The real power is in the upping the boost 3-5psi, and the timing to match. Then the magic will appear!! :D

not an lsj, look at where the graph drops off ~7k,

also, looks nothing like our torque curve. i think he's using it for reference


yeah it's from a wrx. i just posted it becuase there's alot of people that think 25hp from an intake is unbelievable. when in fact bottom end (2500 rpm)on the injen wrx intake is up at almost a 60+hp difference.

what's sad is that i got this info from a person who has the capability of pushing this design through and at the .net forums it's just getting bashed... damn idiots

If there was such a thing produced and showed that kind of mid-range boost (without choking the upper-end), they would sell like hotcakes. No company is going to build a kit on the 'interest' of 50 lousy potential orders. I think someone is over-estimating his ability at pushing through a product as well as over-estimating gains and feeding Selfinfliction some overly optimistic rhetoric.

If they built it, it would sell hugely. Right now it is a pipe-dream from some self-important drone at a CAI company.

I would love to be proved wrong, but, sadly, I do not think I will be.

Wow, I'm in. 25hp for a CAI? That's 03 cobra gains haha.

yeah it's from a wrx. i just posted it becuase there's alot of people that think 25hp from an intake is unbelievable. when in fact bottom end (2500 rpm)on the injen wrx intake is up at almost a 60+hp difference.

what's sad is that i got this info from a person who has the capability of pushing this design through and at the .net forums it's just getting bashed... damn idiots
Before I start, I'm not "bashing", just looking to start an intelligent discussion. To that end, I think these claims are probably a bit generous. 60hp increase at 2500rpm? You realize to make 60 more hp at 2500rpm, you need to be making 125lbft more torque. So you're telling me that by slapping on this intake someone can gain 125lbft @ 2500rpm? No way, just not possible.

25hp for an intake is possible. As someone pointed out, 03 Cobras made that. But 03 Cobras are also 400hp monsters stock. I find it very difficult to believe that slapping an intake on a Cobalt SS will get you 25hp (+12%).

Remember too that dynos are inaccurate at best, and at worst, can be indirectly manipulated to sell a product. I could dyno my car one day, have it make 200whp, then take it home, put some new floor mats on it, take it back the next day, and have it make 220hp. Wow... 20hp from floormats!!!

But hell, prove me wrong. :)

If there was such a thing produced and showed that kind of mid-range boost (without choking the upper-end), they would sell like hotcakes. No company is going to build a kit on the 'interest' of 50 lousy potential orders. I think someone is over-estimating his ability at pushing through a product as well as over-estimating gains and feeding Selfinfliction some overly optimistic rhetoric.


they already have been testing various models with our cars, but out of these companies how many have you ever seen produce an intake that required cutting on the car?:

k&n
AEM
INJEN


that's because they normally don't do things like that. they leave chopping up cars to secondary market companies such as weaponR and bomz. the fact that this could happen is huge, but why would a company even investigate something if they can't get some interest? this isn't the field of dreams, they need to know there's a little interest or why would they waste thousands of dollars in deisgn work and manufacturing without knowing there's some slight interest in the product?

i'm not sure why people have such a hard time seeing what this could bring...

it's the same thing as the header companies, you know i personally pursued some companies trying to get them to look into manufacturing headers, now we have tog in the production stages, pacesetter is in the design stages, msds is waiting to see what all kinds of options are going to be available after sema, and they weren't considering them before i talked to them. and i'm sure as soon as we get the production set out, weapon r will be reverse engineering them to sell a knock off cheap replica of whatever they can get.

can you collect people for a possible group buy w/o that company being a vendor of the site?
I believe getting the names may be legal on the site but if the sell goes through then I think the admins may have a problem with that like they have had with some of their other sites.

You realize to make 60 more hp at 2500rpm, you need to be making 125lbft more torque. So you're telling me that by slapping on this intake someone can gain 125lbft @ 2500rpm? No way, just not possible.

wow.... maybe you could explain to us this crazy calculation you have constructed on figuring that you need 125tq to make 60 hp? i'm intruiged.

for example:

mclaren f1 = 627hp and 479 tq


1995 geo metro 1.3L = 74 tq and 70 hp


see the similarities? cause there are none. tq and hp have almost no dependacies on each other.

can you collect people for a possible group buy w/o that company being a vendor of the site?
I believe getting the names may be legal on the site but if the sell goes through then I think the admins may have a problem with that like they have had with some of their other sites.


i'm not trying to get a group buy.. the dude just needs to see there's some interest. i never said i wanted a group buy, nor was it ever insinuated. that was the whole purpose of posting a thread named "GUAGING INTEREST"

wow.... maybe you could explain to us this crazy calculation you have constructed on figuring that you need 125tq to make 60 hp? i'm intruiged.

for example:

mclaren f1 = 627hp and 479 tq


1995 geo metro 1.3L = 74 tq and 70 hp


see the similarities? cause there are none. tq and hp have almost no dependacies on each other.
Oh dear god. Someone explain this to him, I don't have it in me tonight. :D

Torque and horsepower are intimately related, and if you don't know that, then you shouldn't be making comments about other ppl not knowing anything about cars. If you want +60hp@2500rpm, you need +125lbft@2500rpm. That would be approximately doubling the LSJ's torque/power output @2500rpm, and no intake is doing that.

Incidentally, the graph you posted does not show +60hp @ 2500rpm. Don't get the hp & tq curves mixed up. It shows about +3hp @ 2500rpm.

That would be approximately doubling the LSJ's torque/power output @2500rpm, and no intake is doing that.


maybe you could point me in the direction of where i said that post was an lsj? and then i can point you to where i said it was posted as an example on the previous page

If you want +60hp@2500rpm, you need +125lbft@2500rpm.

sorry man, for that specific example it would calculate out to that. i was just getting pissed cause of all the stupid remarks this thread has conjured, my bad.


i really don't see this thing happening from all the people not even reading the thread before posting. i give up

sorry man, for that specific example it would calculate out to that. i was just getting pissed cause of all the stupid remarks this thread has conjured, my bad.


i really don't see this thing happening from all the people not even reading the thread before posting. i give up
No worries. Listen I'm not trying to be a dick. Hell, put my name down on the list, cause believe me, if I can get 25hp for the price of a CAI, I'm in. No question!

I'm just saying I think that's overly optimistic. Even that dyno graph you posted initially is a good example of "trickery" for the sake of marketing. It only made 23hp at ONE point in the powerband, and that was due to a somewhat suspicious dip in the middle of the stock torque curve aroun 4500. Excluding that mysterious "dip", the rest of the curve shows more modest and normal gains that K&N, AEM, and everyone else claim anyway. So at best, this is them taking advantage of an odd blip in the stock car to inflate their "peak" number, and at worst, this is them unscrupulously sorting through a number of dyno pulls to find the one that most suited what they wanted to show you.

Like I said, I could take my car, dyno it 5 times, pick the best and the worst, plot them together, and claim I got a 10hp increase for doing a voodoo dance.

I'm not saying they won't make a good product. I'm saying claiming 25hp is slightly misleading and not totally honest.

yeah we need to drill a 3" hole in our engine bay for a CAI in the cougar

Like I said, I could take my car, dyno it 5 times, pick the best and the worst, plot them together, and claim I got a 10hp increase for doing a voodoo dance.



:D I should make that my sig, funny stuff. But yeah that does seem to be a bit optimistic. But if it's true than damn I'm jealous. And I'd have to kill any SS owner I ran into that didn't have it. :D

yeah we need to drill a 3" hole in our engine bay for a CAI in the cougar


yeah that gmk cai extension made a huge difference though. can't say i ever missed that big hole i drilled out lol

Here's what I want to know...

On a N/A car, a CAI can provide a signifigant pressure increase, and decrease in air intakes temps. With a N/A car, the air is moving slower through the intake, has longer time to heat, and is relying solely on atmospheric pressure to push air into the cyls. The goal on a N/A car with ANY kind of intake, is to eliminate as much of the resisitance the air would encounter on it's way into the manifold.

NONE of these things are true in a turbo/supercharged car. There is only one way to make more power on the intake side of a turbo/supercharger. One, is to cool the charge as much as possible. A CAI will help, but on the Redline/Cobalt, there already is one. The second, is to take as much load off the blower as possible. This generally results in a cooler air charge, and a SLIGHT increase in the amount it pumps per revolution. The only ways to really do this, is to eliminate ALL areas between the start of the intake and the blower itself, or provide positive pressure at the point of intake.

Oddly enough, none of these facts can be measured on a dyno with stagnant air around the car. I've yet to read, or hear, of people with forced induction engines gaining 25hp from adding an intake. Where is the 25hp coming from? Increased airflow? You're talking about a 10% increase in hp, which would require 10% more air. The blower is moving a fixed amount per revolution, and the amount it moves generally can't go up. You need to increase the density of the air, which decreases it's VOLUME, which will the move that fixed amount of air, but now it is denser...

If the intake is designed by a blind-woodsman, then maybe you can get 25hp. Otherwise it seems kinda insane to get.


I think you said that was a WRX graph? I would like to see a few of them comment on this graph.

This is a quote from one of the guys from AEM on the .net forum. "I will say that the kit that made the most power wont fit in the fender area! There is a lot more potential there, but just thank GM for making access to the fender area so tight! Unless people don't mind cutting some extra room in the hole to the fender and trimming the core support a tad!" so this is possibly the intake but the fender needs modified or something like that.

Here's what I want to know...
NONE of these things are true in a turbo/supercharged car. There is only one way to make more power on the intake side of a turbo/supercharger. One, is to cool the charge as much as possible. A CAI will help, but on the Redline/Cobalt, there already is one. The second, is to take as much load off the blower as possible. This generally results in a cooler air charge, and a SLIGHT increase in the amount it pumps per revolution. The only ways to really do this, is to eliminate ALL areas between the start of the intake and the blower itself, or provide positive pressure at the point of intake.

This is why I never bothered spending the cash on a CAI. I think soon I am just going to take my intake off all together and just put the KN Filter right onto the turbo inlet ;) On F/I cars, especially those w/ intercoolers I see the extra cash for a CAI as a waist. IMO.
More people spend the extra cash to cool the charge after the intake side and you yeild higher results.

yeah it's from a wrx. i just posted it becuase there's alot of people that think 25hp from an intake is unbelievable. when in fact bottom end (2500 rpm)on the injen wrx intake is up at almost a 60+hp difference.

what's sad is that i got this info from a person who has the capability of pushing this design through and at the .net forums it's just getting bashed... damn idiots


hahaha ummm when u say 60+ hp at 2500 rpm.....i think ur confusing the power curve vs the torque curve...

Here's what I want to know...

On a N/A car, a CAI can provide a signifigant pressure increase, and decrease in air intakes temps. With a N/A car, the air is moving slower through the intake, has longer time to heat, and is relying solely on atmospheric pressure to push air into the cyls. The goal on a N/A car with ANY kind of intake, is to eliminate as much of the resisitance the air would encounter on it's way into the manifold.

NONE of these things are true in a turbo/supercharged car. There is only one way to make more power on the intake side of a turbo/supercharger. One, is to cool the charge as much as possible. A CAI will help, but on the Redline/Cobalt, there already is one. The second, is to take as much load off the blower as possible. This generally results in a cooler air charge, and a SLIGHT increase in the amount it pumps per revolution. The only ways to really do this, is to eliminate ALL areas between the start of the intake and the blower itself, or provide positive pressure at the point of intake.

Oddly enough, none of these facts can be measured on a dyno with stagnant air around the car. I've yet to read, or hear, of people with forced induction engines gaining 25hp from adding an intake. Where is the 25hp coming from? Increased airflow? You're talking about a 10% increase in hp, which would require 10% more air. The blower is moving a fixed amount per revolution, and the amount it moves generally can't go up. You need to increase the density of the air, which decreases it's VOLUME, which will the move that fixed amount of air, but now it is denser...

If the intake is designed by a blind-woodsman, then maybe you can get 25hp. Otherwise it seems kinda insane to get.


I think you said that was a WRX graph? I would like to see a few of them comment on this graph.

Mopar came close to it, they claim that we would gain 20 hp and 20 lbs of torque with their cai. For the most part, they're usually right on the dot with their power claims. So if Mopar could claim this, I guess someone can claim it for the CSS?? But I don't think that it's possible to gain that much power with just an cai? Who knows? Anything is possible, right?

NONE of these things are true in a turbo/supercharged car. There is only one way to make more power on the intake side of a turbo/supercharger. One, is to cool the charge as much as possible. A CAI will help, but on the Redline/Cobalt, there already is one. The second, is to take as much load off the blower as possible. This generally results in a cooler air charge, and a SLIGHT increase in the amount it pumps per revolution. The only ways to really do this, is to eliminate ALL areas between the start of the intake and the blower itself, or provide positive pressure at the point of intake.
That's not true. A positive displacement SC will move a fixed amount of air each revolution if the inlet pressure stays constant. If the inlet pressure drops, so does the flow (about linearly), and this is why a better filter/intake DOES work.

The stock intake/filter can pose a restriction. If that's the case, when the SC spins up (and "sucks" harder), you essentially build vacuum in the intake much the way you would in a manifold of a NA car. This means (a) LESS air flow per revolution, and (b) more parasitic loss in the SC. Free up the flow with a better filter & plumbing, and you'll bring the intake closer to atmosphere pressure under full load, which means more air per SC revolution and less parasitic drag.

It's generally best to treat gains as a percentage rather than an absolute value. For example, 03/04 Cobras (4.6L SC V8) did and have easily made substantially more power with better filters/intakes (like 25hp). 25 sounds like a lot, but the motor makes 390 stock, so +25 is really only a bit better than 6%. A 6% gain on an LSJ would be about 12hp, which is around about what most intake vendors claim as a "best case". 25hp on an LSJ would be almost 13% and just isn't gonna happen.

Some more proof of this idea - GM has long made air boxes that have little plastic nubbins in them. When the filter gets clogged, it flows less, which causes a drop in intake pressure under load. The pressure differential causes the little nubbin to pop out, telling you that it's time to change your air filter.

These cannot be used on SC cars, however, because the "sucking" action of the SC creates so much vacuum in the intake that it artificially pops the nubbin out even when the filter is clean. That tells you that there is indeed a substantial pressure difference between the intake tube and atmosphere, meaning that if you had a more free-flowing filter and plumbing, you could increase the SC inlet pressure. = more flow, more power.

That's not true. A positive displacement SC will move a fixed amount of air each revolution if the inlet pressure stays constant. If the inlet pressure drops, so does the flow (about linearly), and this is why a better filter/intake DOES work.

The stock intake/filter can pose a restriction. If that's the case, when the SC spins up (and "sucks" harder), you essentially build vacuum in the intake much the way you would in a manifold of a NA car. This means (a) LESS air flow per revolution, and (b) more parasitic loss in the SC. Free up the flow with a better filter & plumbing, and you'll bring the intake closer to atmosphere pressure under full load, which means more air per SC revolution and less parasitic drag.

It's generally best to treat gains as a percentage rather than an absolute value. For example, 03/04 Cobras (4.6L SC V8) did and have easily made substantially more power with better filters/intakes (like 25hp). 25 sounds like a lot, but the motor makes 390 stock, so +25 is really only a bit better than 6%. A 6% gain on an LSJ would be about 12hp, which is around about what most intake vendors claim as a "best case". 25hp on an LSJ would be almost 13% and just isn't gonna happen.

Isn't that what I'm saying? :confused: Just not nearly as precise?

I'm really speaking in terms of making +25hp on a 200hp engine... I should have been more precise I suppose. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're disagreing with?

Mopar came close to it, they claim that we would gain 20 hp and 20 lbs of torque with their cai. For the most part, they're usually right on the dot with their power claims. So if Mopar could claim this, I guess someone can claim it for the CSS?? But I don't think that it's possible to gain that much power with just an cai? Who knows? Anything is possible, right?
I don't see how...the Mopar CAI is the same thing as the AEM CAI. I've seen a dyno of the AEM and it gains 20hp in 1 spot on the curve and it was at 5500rpm only, 5400rpm and 5600 rpm had about 10-13hp gain jsut at 5500 it somehow spikes to 20hp.

Wow, this is like foreign language to me. haha.

Glad to know there are some knowledgable minds on this forums when it comes to forced induction.

Now talk about the 4.6l mod motor, and I'll chime in :)

Isn't that what I'm saying? :confused: Just not nearly as precise?

I'm really speaking in terms of making +25hp on a 200hp engine... I should have been more precise I suppose. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're disagreing with?
Yeah maybe I wasn't too clear. I thought you were saying from your post that SC engines don't repsond as well to intakes as an NA motor, because increased flow doesn't happen because the SC moves the same amount of air per revolution anyway.

I'm saying it's the other way. An intake or more free flowing filter will actually do MORE to help an FI car than it would for an NA car, because the FI car is likely to suffer from more of an intake vacuum than an NA car would.

danM you pobably already know this but you are right
its just simple physics
i just wish i didn't lease mine so i could put an intake

25 hp?? sounds optomistic to me. if the answer was more air (cold air) and you had to cut the car to get it then why not just cut the hood and put a mail box on it as a hood scoop. then it will have the coldest air possible with no drag to slow the sc down. why cut strucually if you can cut th eood for more gains. so tell me, where are the racers at? i garentee you that if there was way to get 25 hp from an intake that some drag guy would be doing it and we would see pics on the net already.

personaly i think your all getting your chain yanked
but f**k it, i will buy if you produce it and people here say they get it

First of all I don't trust any numbers, graphs, dyno runs or anything that a vendor provides. They are doing one thing and that is trying to sell their product. Had a friend dyno his PT GT with the stock airbox and a CAI. With the CAI he gained 4 hp but lost 19 lbs/ft of torque. Needless to say I have no use for a CAI. With the PT GT and SRT-4 the pcm has parameters as far as how much air it believes is coming through the intake. Doesn't matter if you got a damn hurricane blowing through the intake the pcm still rules. Save your money for a better mod. A K&N drop in filter is a better choice.

Hell if the thing gives me 15 more hp i would be down for it!.