Ok I talked to my dealer last time I was home and agen last week on the phone.
The dealer Im dealing with is Burger Chevy in Grand Rapids MI. They have built some of the fastes Camaros out there and been in all the big mags with them.
They have 4 Cobalt SS S/C cars being tuned up and moded right now.

This is what I was told as of last week.
Stage one and stage two reflashes have a differant part #. Not the kits but just the reflashs them selves. They looked this up some how by cross referancing the parts like you would if you need say one injector becouse yours went bad.

Now he put in a call and talked to his contact at GM and was told that this info is correct and that the stage 1 dose not account for the higher boost of the smaller pully. It will still bleed your boost off at X RPM (It has been changed) and that it will alow more boost then stock but only 1-1.5 PSI Befor it kills your fun.

This is why the stage one to stage two upgrade comes with a new reflash AGEN!

I hope this makes sens to you. If not I dont know what els to say.

Also a 3" pully at 7K will spin your S/C to 14K. Thats its redline.

Later

So the agen will allow for a smalller pulley

Also a 3" pully at 7K will spin your S/C to 14K. Thats its redline.

Later
hmmmm. 7K x A = 14K x 3"

A is the front pulley diameter. with this equation that would mean the front pulley is 6" in diameter.
who knows the front crank pulley diameter?
I have been told we can go to a 2.8 pulley. this would 5.6" front pulley.

Every thing I have read ses that the crank pully is 6" or just barly less then 6".

That really pisses me off, 300$ for a pully is kind of a big difference between 1 and 2.

Damn I just wish they would hurry up and come out!!! :eek:

This month or next was guaranteed to me by the people from GM but this was only for stg2..... he also told me the reported hp is off a little it is more like 260 whp ....

Every thing I have read ses that the crank pully is 6" or just barly less then 6".
Where did you find this info. its not that I dont believe you read it. I just want to reference to your source.

This month or next was guaranteed to me by the people from GM but this was only for stg2..... he also told me the reported hp is off a little it is more like 260 whp ....
saying 245HP to 260WHP is a big difference. Are you sure? willing to put $100 down on that prediction?

Another member on here used a calaper to check the size. And the crank pully on the Eco 2.2L in the cavaler is 6" and they have the same part #s from what I have been able to find.
260hp if the kit is under rated and the motor we KNOW is under rated sounds about right to me for a total with the kit. I was figuring 265 my self.

Later

I heard definite stage 1 coming out this month. just a matter of when. Stage 2 I heard May/June time frame

Another member on here used a calaper to check the size. And the crank pully on the Eco 2.2L in the cavaler is 6" and they have the same part #s from what I have been able to find.
260hp if the kit is under rated and the motor we KNOW is under rated sounds about right to me for a total with the kit. I was figuring 265 my self.

Later
Well 245HP and under rate it when it is actually 265HP I could see but under rate it so it is actually 265WHP is what I doubt is reality. at 15% loss trough the drive train that would mean over 300HP (311hp about but whose counting). That was all I was trying to point out.

Another member on here used a calaper to check the size. And the crank pully on the Eco 2.2L in the cavaler is 6" and they have the same part #s from what I have been able to find.
Later
I will get back to you on that pulley then to try and confirm this. I am skeptical. the reason I have doubt is because GMP says there is alot more that the little Eaton can do to put out even more HP. they have gave impressions that 400HP is possible with the supercharger. as well there is after market pulleys available as small as 2.6".

I am not saying your wrong, I just have questions. I let you know what I find.

Thanks

This is simple, I struggle why folks don't understand.
Smaller pulley = more boost. From idle on up.
More boost = a different required fuel curve.
It's really that simple.

Are you just trying to save money?
Then buy the aftermarket stuff and don't even consider the GM upgrades.

GM will have totally engineered the stage kits......
The aftermarket tuners don't have the resources.

The two programs will be different because of the pulley change.

If you don't believe that, buy stage 1, then buy that little pulley, and don't be surprised if the folks that bought the GM stage 2 kit blow by you.

In time...maybe....the aftermarket tuners might crack the complete code....and will be able to offer complete well engineered setups. Right now, I don't think they are there. But if you do, buy their stuff and don't bitch about the GM stuff.

Again, it's simple.

I still wonder about transmission failures.....duh.

R

^^Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That 265hp was not at the wheels but at the crank. GM ses 205hp stock and we all know its more. Stage 2 is +40hp (Probalby under rated to) and that should give you closer to 265hp at the crank then the 245hp claimed by GM.

yeah, but its all what u can put down to the wheels.

^^Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That 265hp was not at the wheels but at the crank. GM ses 205hp stock and we all know its more. Stage 2 is +40hp (Probalby under rated to) and that should give you closer to 265hp at the crank then the 245hp claimed by GM.This month or next was guaranteed to me by the people from GM but this was only for stg2..... he also told me the reported hp is off a little it is more like 260 whp ....Yeah I believed it was 260 at the crank. That is why I was willing to put a $100 down on that. Unless this is a typo (I doubt that) he clearly said WHP. see quote above.

I missed that part. I realy dont think it will make that much at the wheels but the crank I can see.

Later

That really pisses me off, 300$ for a pully is kind of a big difference between 1 and 2.

psssst...... JKP Stage 3......... ;)

OK, I made some contacts today and here is the latest scoop. Stage 1 and 2 should be orderable by the dealers any day now. The hold up is in getting an initial stock of the injectors. For the additional $300, you get both stage 1 and 2, not just a pulley and belt. Be ready to order 17803229 for stage 1 and 2. For stage 1 and 2, there is only one cal.. Like someone else said, you had better spend some money up front on an upgraded clutch and suspension mods. Otherwise, you will only be able to wheel hop your dif to death quicker and make your tires bald faster. Personally, I have about $1,000 invested up front before I buy the stage kit.

OK, I made some contacts today and here is the latest scoop. Stage 1 and 2 should be orderable by the dealers any day now. The hold up is in getting an initial stock of the injectors. For the additional $300, you get both stage 1 and 2, not just a pulley and belt. Be ready to order 17803229 for stage 1 and 2. For stage 1 and 2, there is only one cal.. Like someone else said, you had better spend some money up front on an upgraded clutch and suspension mods. Otherwise, you will only be able to wheel hop your dif to death quicker and make your tires bald faster. Personally, I have about $1,000 invested up front before I buy the stage kit.

What all would you guys and gals out there do to the suspension? TQ Brace comes to mind, maybe strut tower bar and sway bars. Anything else?

Here is what I am doing this weekend assuming the springs come in. Aluminum flywheel, clutchmasters stage 3 disc and pressure plate, and slave cylinder, Eibach pro kit springs, polyurethane control arm bushings, polyurethane engine mount, K&N filter, autometer cobalt series a/f meter and autometer cobalt series performance gauge. Obviously, the gauges are nothing more than a predicter of what is going on with the engine. The K&N is to reduce restriction. Aluminum flywheel to spin engine up quicker, clutch/pressure plate for torque capacity, and the springs and polyurethane stuff to control wheel hop. You mentioned a torque brace. I have had mixed feelings about them, which is why I am going a different route. Strut tower bar and sway bars will help with front chassis stiffness and body roll in corners, but I don't see where they are going to help wheel hop.

Here is what I am doing this weekend assuming the springs come in. Aluminum flywheel, clutchmasters stage 3 disc and pressure plate, and slave cylinder, Eibach pro kit springs, polyurethane control arm bushings, polyurethane engine mount, K&N filter, autometer cobalt series a/f meter and autometer cobalt series performance gauge. Obviously, the gauges are nothing more than a predicter of what is going on with the engine. The K&N is to reduce restriction. Aluminum flywheel to spin engine up quicker, clutch/pressure plate for torque capacity, and the springs and polyurethane stuff to control wheel hop. You mentioned a torque brace. I have had mixed feelings about them, which is why I am going a different route. Strut tower bar and sway bars will help with front chassis stiffness and body roll in corners, but I don't see where they are going to help wheel hop.

Some of that is on cobalt-addiction and gravana tuning. Anywhere else web wise? I'm just looking to get the best deal on upgrades. I wouldn't go with the stage 3 on my end just because I drive my cobalt daily and it sometimes get driven by the wife. Will stage 1 or 2 handle the updated power effectively? I also would wait for the current clutch to tank or be a problem slip wise before I replace since that is a pain to swap and expensive.

I've heard good and bad about the tq brace as well. so basically bushings and engine mount for sure. With the springs if I plan on doing coil overs later on should I hold off on the springs and go with coilovers? Also with springs who makes the best for our car, and also who makes the best coilovers?

Thanks for the info!

I went with zz performance for the engine mount, JBP for the control arm bushings, my own store for the eibachs, gauges, K&N, and gauge pod, direct from clutchmasters for the flywheel, disc and pressure plate. You ask who makes the best springs and coilovers. My response is that you are likely to find as many opinions as the number of people you ask. You ask if stage 1 or 2 clutch kit will handle the power effectively? How much power do you expect to put to the road? I am changing mine out because I have driven a Cobalt with the GM stage 2 performance upgrade and I know for myself that the stock will not handle it and intend on going beyond the stage 2 upgrade, so I wanted enough clutch to handle me for the future. Pedal effort is not a major issue to me.

how bad is the vibration w/ the engine mount. I also bought zzperformance engine mount but haven't installed it on my redline

The engine mount is nothing. Now the front trans mount is a different story.

Here is what I am doing this weekend assuming the springs come in. Aluminum flywheel, clutchmasters stage 3 disc and pressure plate, and slave cylinder, Eibach pro kit springs, polyurethane control arm bushings, polyurethane engine mount, K&N filter, autometer cobalt series a/f meter and autometer cobalt series performance gauge.

Your car has a slave cylinder?

It is a hydraulic device that pushes the throw-out bearing in when the clutch is depressed. I have always known that to be called a slave cylinder.

The engine mount is nothing. Now the front trans mount is a different story.
actually, you've got them backwards. The transmission mount is very simple to change and the engine mount is the one you need something to take the pressure off prior to removal.

Doc, I think he was talking about the vibration, not the ease of installation.

Yea I ment the vibs.

This is simple, I struggle why folks don't understand.
Smaller pulley = more boost. From idle on up.
More boost = a different required fuel curve.
It's really that simple.

The two programs will be different because of the pulley change.

If you don't believe that, buy stage 1, then buy that little pulley, and don't be surprised if the folks that bought the GM stage 2 kit blow by you.


That why there are things called adjustible fuel tables. When your cars starts up it analyzes everything from a lot of sensors and load maps required for the seen parameters. Thats the reason my car will run slower in this hot humid FL weather than a car with crisp cold air up in NY. There is only 1 reflash and when you start the car it can tell you have a pulley due to more air enter per revolution and it will load a stage 2 setup.

btw I'll send you the dyno after I get my stage 1 and my cute little pulley and you can realize how much more power I make than the folks who bought the stage 2 kit. And after I pass them I can stop by the Taco Bell to get some food with the money I saved from not buying stage 2 ;) :D

Doc, I think he was talking about the vibration, not the ease of installation.
lol...ok, that makes sense..
his assessment is correct. ;)

and I'll wait to get my stage kit for a bit to check out the best setup..

That why there are things called adjustible fuel tables. When your cars starts up it analyzes everything from a lot of sensors and load maps required for the seen parameters. Thats the reason my car will run slower in this hot humid FL weather than a car with crisp cold air up in NY. There is only 1 reflash and when you start the car it can tell you have a pulley due to more air enter per revolution and it will load a stage 2 setup.

btw I'll send you the dyno after I get my stage 1 and my cute little pulley and you can realize how much more power I make than the folks who bought the stage 2 kit. And after I pass them I can stop by the Taco Bell to get some food with the money I saved from not buying stage 2 ;) :D

Even a car with a carburetor will run slower in hot humid air than in clear cold crisp air. Duh. An FI car simply knows the conditions when it starts up and can make some adjustments.

As far as your claims that simply based on airflow at idle after start up.....the car will know for sure it has a slightly smaller pulley, well give me some proof. Idle airflow will be barely detectable.

And what makes you think...even if what you say is true...that GM included "tables" for even smaller pullies......especially the cute one that you plan on buying?

Find me a statement from a GM engineer that states what you say, and I'll buy in.

No one here is really going to know what the re-flash (calibration) part numbers are....if GM even will tell us, until we have the stage kits in hand.

I suspect a rash of broken transmissions......

Ron

It is a hydraulic device that pushes the throw-out bearing in when the clutch is depressed. I have always known that to be called a slave cylinder.

I understand what it does. One of the first things I noticed about my car was that it did not have a seperate clutch slave cylinder. Just the master / brake cylinder.

I understand what it does. One of the first things I noticed about my car was that it did not have a seperate clutch slave cylinder. Just the master / brake cylinder.


I think you are confusing the clutch master cylinder with the clutch slave cylinder. The slave cylinder is on the transmission. Of course, I could just be a dumbass and not know what I am talking about, you never know about me! :D

Here is my two cents worth. First of all let me say that I am an engineer at GM, but that does not make me the ultimate authority. Ok, 498Nova, I agree that airflow at idle will not show up a smaller pulley, because if you take note (AlphaJaguar5), your boost gauge is on the vacuum side at idle AND, as 498Nova stated, the airflow rate is very low at idle. Now I am going to beg to differ with you 498Nova in that I am pretty confident that any calibration will be able to compensate for a certain amount of extra air flow over and above what it was targeted at. BUT, AlphaJaguar5, I will caution you two things about going too small on your pulley. 1. Don't spin your supercharger higher than 16,000 rpm unless you favor the idea of having many pieces of one supercharger rather than one complete/functioning supercharger, and 2. With this setup, anything over about 19 pounds of boost is a waste unless you make some significant improvements to the intercooler or otherwise cool your air charge (ie - NOS). The reason is that the intercooler is not able to cool the charge air enough above the 19 pound point to allow you to make more power. In addition to the fact that the higher boost will have an impact on engine life. I think I can say with confidence that NO aftermarket company has put the time into development and research to get the best combination of performance and reliability that GM did, and I could care less if you buy the GM stage kits or not.

OK guys our cars do have a clutch slave cylinder and a clutch master cylinder they do share the brake fluid reservoir though.

OK guys our cars do have a clutch slave cylinder and a clutch master cylinder they do share the brake fluid reservoir though.

I agree! :)

I want to say my '03 cavalier had a clutch cylinder attached to the firewall just like the brake cylinder is. Know my Z did...

I want to say my '03 cavalier had a clutch cylinder attached to the firewall just like the brake cylinder is. Know my Z did...


Yes you are right. That is the clutch MASTER cylinder. The clutch SLAVE cylinder is on/in the transmission

I went with zz performance for the engine mount, JBP for the control arm bushings, my own store for the eibachs, gauges, K&N, and gauge pod, direct from clutchmasters for the flywheel, disc and pressure plate. You ask who makes the best springs and coilovers. My response is that you are likely to find as many opinions as the number of people you ask. You ask if stage 1 or 2 clutch kit will handle the power effectively? How much power do you expect to put to the road? I am changing mine out because I have driven a Cobalt with the GM stage 2 performance upgrade and I know for myself that the stock will not handle it and intend on going beyond the stage 2 upgrade, so I wanted enough clutch to handle me for the future. Pedal effort is not a major issue to me.

Stage 2 at least for me. I also want to add K&N. Beyond that I am torn between keeping this legal for emissions or just going all out with a track car. For now I have to keep it street legal since I or my wife may actually have to drive it somewhere. Stage 2 is the most agressive I would go, but I am hoping that keeping it under 300 HP at the crank will allow me to go with a stage 1 since I do want to keep it on the street.

Here is my two cents worth. First of all let me say that I am an engineer at GM, but that does not make me the ultimate authority. Ok, 498Nova, I agree that airflow at idle will not show up a smaller pulley, because if you take note (AlphaJaguar5), your boost gauge is on the vacuum side at idle AND, as 498Nova stated, the airflow rate is very low at idle. Now I am going to beg to differ with you 498Nova in that I am pretty confident that any calibration will be able to compensate for a certain amount of extra air flow over and above what it was targeted at. BUT, AlphaJaguar5, I will caution you two things about going too small on your pulley. 1. Don't spin your supercharger higher than 16,000 rpm unless you favor the idea of having many pieces of one supercharger rather than one complete/functioning supercharger, and 2. With this setup, anything over about 19 pounds of boost is a waste unless you make some significant improvements to the intercooler or otherwise cool your air charge (ie - NOS). The reason is that the intercooler is not able to cool the charge air enough above the 19 pound point to allow you to make more power. In addition to the fact that the higher boost will have an impact on engine life. I think I can say with confidence that NO aftermarket company has put the time into development and research to get the best combination of performance and reliability that GM did, and I could care less if you buy the GM stage kits or not.

What's the limit to crank HP that the LSJ can run without running into problems? I have some folks say per the build book that we can go to 350 HP *Manifold limit* others lay claims to the, rod, piston and header bolt lift around 300HP. Basically I want to know if I can get away with adding NOS to the stage 2 kit *For track days* without breaking anything engine wise. I know it will depend on how much NOS, so basically I am looking at anywhere from 25-100 HP NOS shot. Also I hear folks talk about the tranny being a weak point along with the clutch. What are your thoughts on that? Not going to take what you say as gospel just looking for some other baselines so that I don't kill my ride/void warranty before my payments are done. :D

Now if I am running around 275-285 hp after Stage kits, should I think about swapping out the pistons??

Now if I am running around 275-285 hp after Stage kits, should I think about swapping out the pistons??

The build book claims those are good to 300HP, but I wonder myself if I need to do anything to keep the tranny and engine good to go. So don't take this as any official answer.

gmtunersource.com is the website with the build book.

BUT, AlphaJaguar5, I will caution you two things about going too small on your pulley. 1. Don't spin your supercharger higher than 16,000 rpm unless you favor the idea of having many pieces of one supercharger rather than one complete/functioning supercharger,

I plan on keeping my Billetflow 2.9" So I wont be anywhere near the 16k limit. Thanks for the info though
:)

Here is my two cents worth. First of all let me say that I am an engineer at GM, but that does not make me the ultimate authority. Ok, 498Nova, I agree that airflow at idle will not show up a smaller pulley, because if you take note (AlphaJaguar5), your boost gauge is on the vacuum side at idle AND, as 498Nova stated, the airflow rate is very low at idle. Now I am going to beg to differ with you 498Nova in that I am pretty confident that any calibration will be able to compensate for a certain amount of extra air flow over and above what it was targeted at. BUT, AlphaJaguar5, I will caution you two things about going too small on your pulley. 1. Don't spin your supercharger higher than 16,000 rpm unless you favor the idea of having many pieces of one supercharger rather than one complete/functioning supercharger, and 2. With this setup, anything over about 19 pounds of boost is a waste unless you make some significant improvements to the intercooler or otherwise cool your air charge (ie - NOS). The reason is that the intercooler is not able to cool the charge air enough above the 19 pound point to allow you to make more power. In addition to the fact that the higher boost will have an impact on engine life. I think I can say with confidence that NO aftermarket company has put the time into development and research to get the best combination of performance and reliability that GM did, and I could care less if you buy the GM stage kits or not.

Thanks Soccer for an excellent answer.
I forgot to mention that at idle, the blower will be in bypass mode, so the system won't have a clue as to what size pulley is on the blower.
Mass air flow systems can indeed compensate for a certain level of modifications to air flow. But they have to learn...right? It doesn't happen immediately.

Now....if our cars had wideban O2 sensors.....but I don't know if they do. I doubt it.

Seems to make sense to me that GM would provide the absolute correct program for the smaller pulley that they supply. Then you will have room to go up from there.

Perhaps there is just one new calibration part number...but just maybe there is a hook in the program that asks....stage 1 or stage 2? Same software could then accomodate both levels.

As I said, until these are out...we won't know. And maybe even then we won't know unless you ask the tech who installs the code.
There are for sure a few possibilities.

Good point on the blower speed. Ditto on the increase in inlet air temp.......physics says that when you compress air...it gets hotter. Can't get around that. I suppose one could run dry ice or NOS in front of the heat exchanger, but it's hardly a daily driver fix.

As far as drive it like you stole it at the track....I'll stand by my experience that the transaxle will break.....I saw the remains of mine....the gears are small.

Ron

OK, As you approach 350 crank HP, you want to consider forged pistons. The problem is that the number 2 ring begins to flutter under the higher cylinder pressures and when the ring and the ring land let go, by by short block. The failure is instantaneous and disastrous. I am convinced that even the best BS'er could not convince the dealer that it should be covered under warranty. I plan on running a 75 horse shot of nitrous with my stage 2 kit and do not anticipate turning my engine into shrapnel (sp.). The nice thing about running nitrous with a computer controlled engine is that the engine will protect you to a point from doing something stupid. Now I also am installing a A/F ratio gauge right now with my clutch and flywheel swap. It only makes sense that as you start to push the envelope a little bit that you monitor key attributes. 498Nova, from my research, there appears to be only one cal upgrade between stage 1 and 2. The key is that the cal is capable of handling the air flow of the smaller pulley. The way I see it, part number 17803229 is both stage 1 and 2 all in one purchase. I wish the darned things would hit the street. I hope GM has accurately anticipated the pent up demand for these kits. Also, I am surprised that you grenaded your trans. Were you launching it hard or otherwise hitting some severe impact loads? I know that NO manual trans likes to be impacted hard in reverse. But from the parts that you had wiped out, it almost sounds like a quality issue with one of the internals. Traditionally, the F35 has been a good trans. Oh well, like they say, Do Do Occurs. -Mike

so stage 1 comes with injectors and a reflash and stage 2 comes with a pulley and a belt with a different reflash?

so stage 1 comes with injectors and a reflash and stage 2 comes with a pulley and a belt with a different reflash?
Most people would think that is the correct answer as you would need a different tune. But, who know besides GM at this point? Looks like nobody..... We will find out pretty soon though....